Philanthropy Speaks

A More Perfect Union: Delma Jackson III on Intersectionality and Justice in America

• Kstuck • Season 6 • Episode 7

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In this episode of Philanthropy Speaks, we revisit a workshop the Community Foundation of Greater Flint co-hosted this summer called A More Perfect Union: From Isolation to Intersectionality, held as the nation approached the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Host Lynn Williams, Director of Equity and Community Engagement at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint, sits down with Delma Jackson III, founder of the Sankofa Project for Social Justice and senior fellow at the Center for Whole Communities.

Jackson, a facilitator, writer, and lecturer on social justice who has brought his work to campuses and conferences across the country, grounds the conversation in Sankofa philosophy, the idea that the past lives with us in the present and guides how we build the future.

Tune in to learn how intersectionality connects histories of indigenous genocide, slavery, and Jim Crow, why Jackson argues a more perfect union cannot be built through denial, and what it really means to move from isolation toward solidarity. From somatic practice to street-level rebellion to the everyday work of checking our own biases, discover why Jackson believes justice work starts wherever you already are.

Learn more about the Truth, Racial Healing and Transformation initiative at https://www.cfgf.org/trht and about the Sankofa Project for Social Justice at https://www.delmajackson.com.

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Delma Jackson

I think part of what we see over and over again is we tend to care deeply about whatever groups we are a part of but not necessarily groups we don't identify with, and that allows that sort of divide and conquer approach, I think. You know? That's their problem sort of approach. And as long as that's the case, then I think we're gonna continue to have the same issues over and over again that we have so far historically.

Lynn Williams

Welcome to Philanthropy Speaks, the podcast where Flint and Genesee County community voices lead the conversation. Each episode, philanthropy speaks through lived stories, local leadership, and the people building a stronger community. I'm your host, Lynn Williams, director of equity and community engagement at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint. Let's hear what philanthropy has to say today. This episode is a spin on a workshop we co-hosted this summer called A More Perfect Union: From Isolation to Intersectionality. As the nation approached its 250th anniversary since the signing of the Declaration of Independence, we wanted to dig into a question that doesn't get asked enough: What does it really take to move closer to justice and shared humanity? No matter our background, that's the conversation today. Today I'm joined by Delma Jackson III, founder of the Sankofa Project for Social Justice. Delma is a senior fellow at the Center for Whole Communities, and he's a facilitator, writer, and lecturer on social justice who's brought his work to campuses and conferences across the country. His approach is grounded in Sankofa philosophy, which is the idea that the past lives with us in the present, and it guides how we plan the future. So welcome, Delma, and thank you for being here.

Delma Jackson

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Lynn Williams

Ah. I appreciate you giving us a little bit of your time.

Delma Jackson

Of course.

Lynn Williams

Okay. Well, let's start with talking about a very successful workshop that we had on June the 20th. I know I was happy to be there. I learned a lot, as I always do. And I was impressed with the number of folks in community that are interested in this topic and having conversation about our democracy and our common humanity and the intersections. Can you reflect on the workshop a little bit?

Delma Jackson

Sure. And yeah, thanks for coming out to that. Our workshops tend to focus a lot on intersectionality whenever possible. It could just look different depending on the individual topic. But either way, there's typically three components that we want to make sure we're always bringing into the space. One is the somatic or bodily practice, paying attention to your body, paying attention to your heart rate, your breathing, things of that nature that might be signaling to you that you're having a reaction-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

to something that you're hearing or experiencing. And I think this is a part of our experience that we don't necessarily pay enough attention to.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

And I think it does impact how we respond in real time often. And I always make the argument that I think for the most part, injustice tends to happen when we're not paying close attention to what our body is trying to tell us.

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

And we sort of fly off the cuff or have a knee-jerk reaction-

Lynn Williams

Okay

Delma Jackson

and say something or do something that we can't take back. So we definitely wanna bring that aspect into our spaces. And so, our colleague Kanesha Norris along with some other community partners sometimes will do a great job of just kind of grounding us in the space, giving us a chance to collectively breathe, pay attention to what our bodies are feeling, any tension we might be holding, et cetera. Moving out of that space my colleague Regina Lori will often sort of frame what we're here to discuss, frame the topic, and frame the fact that we're not really big on the whole sit and get or the strictly didactic model that comes out of academia where you just sit there and somebody talks at you- Okay and then you leave. Uh-huh. Our hope is always to be able to make sure that there is opportunity for folks to talk to one another in the context of the larger conversation we're there to have. So Regina often brings that workshop component into the spaces that we're working in, giving folks an opportunity to pair off, separate a little bit- Okay and process together and make meaning together. And then the third part, which I'm often the one doing, is more of the didactic, more traditional academic, here's my slide deck. Mm-hmm. Here's what I think about it kind of thing. But my goal is always to try and frame Rather than framing it as a historical piece, I really wanna frame things as a trajectory piece, right? So-

Lynn Williams

Okay

Delma Jackson

it's not just looking back at what happened, but it's being able to say, "This is what happened. This is how it's showing up today. This is how it's impacting all of us." So yeah.

Lynn Williams

Okay. And all for the purpose of-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

doing something different in the future?

Delma Jackson

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Lynn Williams

That's kinda what the name, kinda what the name sort of describes, Sankofa, right?

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

Tell us a little bit more about the Sankofa philosophy- Sure since it undergirds this work.

Delma Jackson

Sure. Yeah, I was introduced to the Sankofa philosophy actually in undergrad. I was an African American studies major, and there was actually a film called Sankofa that we watched in one of my classes. And it's old school. I'm think- I'm guessing '70s, '80s is when it was made.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

But basically, you have a protagonist who ends up, She is a model. She is on the west coast of Africa in one of the actual departure areas where slave ships- Slave came and gone.

Lynn Williams

Okay. Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And she gets lost, and when she finds her way back out, she's actually in the past.

Lynn Williams

Wow.

Delma Jackson

So she gets captured. She gets put on the ship. She gets brought to the United States. She goes through the whole experience, and the whole point of Sankofa is to say that the past very much lives with us in the present. It informs our present, and if we're not paying close attention, if we're not asking the right questions, if we're not learning-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

then we're doomed to repeat it in our future. On the flip side, the good news is if you are paying attention, if you are asking the right questions-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

then you can build something new. You can dream into something different and have a better future. And so, that philosophy is one that really resonated with me to the point where my 20-year-old self got it inked on my shoulder, you know? It was just- Oh, wow so impactful to me. Okay. Yeah. And to this day, it's, it's something that I, I bring into all the work I do, for sure.

Lynn Williams

That's good. So it's a deeply held value for

Delma Jackson

you. Very much

Lynn Williams

so. A commitment, not just- Mm-hmm not just a phrase or a title.

Delma Jackson

Exactly.

Lynn Williams

That's important. That's important. A more perfect union.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

That comes straight from the Constitution, right?

Delma Jackson

It does. It does.

Lynn Williams

So what does that phrase mean to you?

Delma Jackson

Yeah. It is actually part of the preamble. And it sets up the Constitution by naming what it is that this document is intended to do, right? In order to form, we the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, right?

Katelyn

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And that phrasing is not necessarily envisioned by a whole history of activists in the way that it was envisioned by those who penned the phrase in the first place. The so-called Founding Fathers definitely understood that if the United States was going to survive, things would need to shift, things would need to change. And so there's language throughout the Constitution that hints at the fact that this document is sort of a launch, but that it has to be revisited. It will change, it will evolve as the people evolve, as the country evolves. Ah,

Lynn Williams

interesting.

Delma Jackson

And so while so many groups of people, indigenous folks-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

right, women of every color, Black folk, right, anybody who is not wealthy, white, land-owning was not enfranchised-

Lynn Williams

Okay

Delma Jackson

couldn't vote, couldn't participate in the system.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

But their labor was used to prop the system up. The land was used to prop the system up. In the history of the United States, it's kind of this group of people, one after another, working to push the country in the direction that its founding documents reflect, right? So as early as, for instance, right, 1829, you have David Walker-

Lynn Williams

Uh-huh

Delma Jackson

writing his appeal how dare you talk about equality given the circumstances of Black people in this country,

Lynn Williams

right?

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. 1833, the indigenous brother, you know, William Apess leverages the Declaration of Independence to get the Massachusetts territory off the back of his indigenous brothers and sisters. You have Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 1848, same thing in Seneca Falls, you know- Mm-hmm writing about disenfranchisement as tyranny, right? Frederick Douglass, 1852.

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

What to the Negroes the Fourth of July? July. Right? 1910, Ida B. Wells investigating lynching all over the country as a journalist, writing an essay in 1910 looking at the Declaration of Independence and saying, "The only way that we're gonna get this mob violence under control- Mm-hmm is if every citizen falls under the purview of this land's laws," right, including, and it has to include us, right? And you know, MLK's last speech-

Lynn Williams

Uh-huh

Delma Jackson

right? All we ask for, America, is be true to what you said on paper, right? We hear it as recently as 2016 with Standing Rock, where the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution is read once again- Right and reframed in that context. So America's history is a long history of different people at different times pushing America to become what is said it was intended to be in its founding documents. And so that phrasing brings all of those histories up

Lynn Williams

for me. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Yeah.

Lynn Williams

I often wonder, when I think about it, I often wonder in the creation of these documents, the, the Constitution, the Founding Fathers, in their mind, their mindset, were they saying and thinking that we and those that look like us are human and everybody else is another class, therefore they don't fit into this?

Katelyn

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Lynn Williams

And you've mentioned numerous examples, and there are continuing to be numerous examples. It seems we still have to even express today the, the challenges with that notion and trying to get people to accept all of us as human.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

Okay? Our common humanity.

Delma Jackson

Yeah.

Lynn Williams

It's amazing that it's still a challenge.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. And I think part of what we see over and over again is we tend to care deeply about whatever groups we are a part of- Mm-hmm but not necessarily groups we don't identify with, and that allows that sort of divide and conquer approach, I think. You know? Mm-hmm. That's their problem sort of approach. And as long as that's the case, then I think we're gonna continue to have the same issues over and over again that we have so far historically. Yeah.

Lynn Williams

For all these number of years.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

So you said, and I think this is probably getting into what you were just alluding to, but you said a more perfect union can't be built through denial.

Delma Jackson

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

So little bit more, I think we've started to talk about what that denial looks like, but if you could share a little bit more of what that denial looks like, and what does it cost us?

Delma Jackson

Yeah. I think- America has had a historical tendency to think of itself as the beacon on the hill, as the light as the world leader and example of what freedom looks like even as, right, this cognitive dissonance, even as it understands that your democracy is built on the disenfranchisement of multiple populations who are so-called citizens. I mean, we're seeing the disenfranchisement right now in our courts with the dismantling of the civil rights or voting rights act. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm. Right?

Delma Jackson

And so under the auspices that everything is fine, now you're no longer needed, and we're already seeing the rollout and the fallout from that, right?

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

So this is an ongoing push and pull between two separate ideas about what this country is, and this country's always been split in that way. There's always been the camp that said we are a, multicultural, multifaceted, multi-religious, multi fill in the blank country, and that's what makes us strong.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

You've also always had the camp that says that this is a white country for white people- Okay explicitly, right? Mm-hmm. And the founding documents actually support that, right? So let's be clear right? Let's not mince words on that. And so that camp has plenty to point to as evidence of that argument. Now, for those of us who don't fit that description, our role has always been historically to push back.

Lynn Williams

To push back.

Delma Jackson

Or get out, right? Those have always been historically the two options. I mean, that's where you get Marcus Garvey-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

right? The Back to Africa movement.

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

And so that version of American history that says we are a plurocracy, and we are here for everybody, and everybody's equal, and all of that has always been in conflict with it is a white country for white people. And as long as those two ideas are allowed to coexist without any real reckoning-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

then I think the denial will continue to manifest. And dissidence is disabling, right? Like, when you ask what do we lose-

Lynn Williams

Right

Delma Jackson

there is a certain amount of mental anguish, mental disconnect, cognitive dissonance that you live with. And I don't mean the healthy kind, right, that we all have to have just to- Right get through the day, but this is, no, this is far more intrusive and disruptive to who we are, and how we see ourselves, and how we function as human beings. I think ultimately, you know, I think about Jimmy Baldwin, who wrote about this quite a bit, right?

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

America's fascination with maintaining its own sense of innocence at all costs means that we get things like January 6th. It means that we see this young man who was recently in the news what's the brother's name? Nolan, I think-

Lynn Williams

Mm

Delma Jackson

who was out with his... You know, he's the, the only Black young man amongst white young people, and he's the only one that doesn't come home.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Right? It's not that that happens in and of itself, but it's the way the media talks about it.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

It's the way that law enforcement responds to it.

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

It is the lack of scrutiny, right? It's always been very clear that- On one hand, America wants to believe itself as innocent, but in order to prevent having to grapple with any other idea, it will launch into all kinds of twists and turns and gymnastics, and sometimes outright violence and rebellion, like we saw on January 6th- Mm-hmm in order to maintain its own innocence. If that's not paradoxical, if that's not problematic, then I don't know what is, right?

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

The two things have to be reconciled, and until we do, we'll continue in this insanity. Yeah.

Lynn Williams

Yeah, yeah. Well, you connect histories that people usually treat separately.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

Like indigenous genocide, slavery, and Jim Crow. Why do you draw those lines between them, and can you draw a few for our audience?

Delma Jackson

Sure. Yeah. There's a quote from Malcolm X that I love, where he said "It's freedom for everybody or it's freedom for nobody." And I think that is the quintessential quote for me that encapsulates how I think about this work.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

As long as I'm okay with a particular group of people not having access to what I enjoy access to, I am also vulnerable, because today it's that group, but tomorrow it's my group. And who gets to determine which group should be free to live as they see fit and which group should not? That is constantly shifting and changing hands. And so what connects all of our histories is this pattern of, first you dehumanize.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

That always comes first.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

How we talk about the group renders the group less than human in our language, right? Even if we say we don't hate fill in the blank, there's always caveats. There's always, "But I don't wanna see this," or, "But I..." Right? Things you would never say about your own-

Lynn Williams

Okay

Delma Jackson

in a million years. And it can start there, and then from there it can shift, because somebody comes along and says, "I hear you. What are we gonna do about it?" Right? Now we start getting into, we move from propaganda into policy and procedure, right?

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And at that point you have institutionalized hatred and oppression. That history shows up no matter what group you point to, and as soon as that group, quote-unquote, whatever that group is, as soon as they are well stomped into the ground the folks who do the stomping-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

do the same thing every time and turn to the next and say, "Okay, who's next?" You know.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Who do we wanna go after now?

Lynn Williams

Talk about the impact that intersectionality then has- On that- Dynamic or on the people- Because of that dynamic.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. I think intersectionality is an invitation to see yourself in people who don't necessarily look like you, love like you, pray like you, et cetera.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Right? Once you are able to see yourself in everyone, then what happens to everyone matters to you, you show up for everyone because you understand that your liberation is tied into their own, right?

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

And so we tend to really be over-simplistic in a lot of the work we do, and it tends to be led at a street level. So what I mean by that is, had George Floyd, for instance, simply been murdered by an officer, but there was no public street level response to his murder-

Katelyn

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

I don't know how many agencies or philanthropic organizations or corporations or anyone else would have said, you know, "We gotta do something. We gotta organize. We gotta open a department. We gotta invest money. We gotta do this. We gotta do that." That usually comes after the streets are on fire. Yeah. And the same people who say, you know, "What's the point of a riot?"

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

That's kind of the point of a riot. Because when it's me writing to my congressperson, that doesn't happen. When it's me simply pushing at the margins or within the confines of power-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

I'm ignored, right? So even when we kneel on the side of a football field, we're doing too much, we hold King up on a pedestal now, but when King was sitting in a Birmingham jail, he's getting all kinds of feedback from pastors and others all over the country like, "Why are you doing so much? Why are you pushing so hard?"

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And King reminds us, justice delayed is justice denied.

Lynn Williams

Denied, mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And so who gets to determine if the street level rebellion is appropriate? 'Cause kneeling on the side of the football field apparently wasn't appropriate. What King did apparently wasn't appropriate at the time, and you killed him. Hmm? So-

Lynn Williams

Right, right

Delma Jackson

I'm tired of having that, that argument. I'm tired of that debate, and I'm tired of us not recognizing the fact that we can say what we want to about folks at the street level. We can say what we want to about the burnings, the lootings, the whatever, but at the end of the day, that is what moves this country to try to do something, and they have a very short memory.

Lynn Williams

Hmm.

Delma Jackson

Where is all of that now? You know. This administration comes in, they throw around a few lawsuits, and

Lynn Williams

the next- A few executive orders

Delma Jackson

and the next thing you know, a lot of that money dries up. People aren't having that conversation. They don't even wanna use the phrase DEI. And that is not, if that's a controversial phrase, we in trouble. We in trouble, right?

Lynn Williams

Yeah.

Delma Jackson

And so I think making space for all of the ways that we feel moved to, to, to show up is important. Not getting caught up in, "Why aren't you doing it the way I'm doing it?"

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Right? Your way doesn't have to be my way, but I do need to recognize that you are in the same struggle as I am. I'm gonna support you where I can. If I don't agree with something, I won't, but I'm still here with you. We have to be able to move that way, and that too is intersectional in approach.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

It leaves room for all ways of being and doing to coexist. So yeah. Does that get at what you were-

Lynn Williams

It does. It does. And it also helps to underscore that the work, though uncomfortable, does not have to be divisive and, and is not intended to pit us-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

one against another. As a matter of fact you said we shouldn't only be concerned about what impacts us directly.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

You know, what impacts us. So what does that kind of solidarity look like in practice, where we're embracing concern with- and linking-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

with what affects others?

Delma Jackson

Yeah, I think it can look a lot of different ways. I mean, I would love to say that I was always intersectional, but it was definitely a long process. And I've written about this before. I talk about the fact that I was first politicized through African American studies, probably because I identify as an African American, right? I wasn't gonna take gender studies- Okay 'cause that wasn't my struggle. I didn't understand it. And so we tend to get hooked in in the areas where we feel most impacted. And it was only because I had good professors, good friends, met good activists, that over the course of the next, what, 25, 30 years, I come to understand how interconnected these other struggles are, often through personal relationship first.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

It's getting to know someone and learning to love somebody for who they are. And if they have an analysis they can share, I'm more likely to hear it, even if it's- Mm-hmm uncomfortable or hard or challenging to me. It was a woman I loved that introduced me to bell hooks.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

I can't say I would've just picked up bell hooks on my own 'cause-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

the way she was talking about Black men-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

I'm reading that book, and I sounded just like some of the white folks in my workshops. Like, "That's not me. Why are you making it about gender?" And then I realized what I was doing in the book, and I'm like, "Oh."

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

So that was a pivotal moment- Okay

Lynn Williams

for me. Okay.

Delma Jackson

Right? Because the what about-ism was strong in me. That force was strong in this one, and so it took having people who cared enough to share, and me caring enough about them to actually investigate, right?

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

It took working at Wellness Services for five years to really be able to contend with my own homophobia, transphobia, to make relationships with folks who are navigating queer identities-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

and moving in queer bodies. And I'm like, "Oh it makes sense now. I see this now." Right? And so it, for me, looks like trying to make sure I'm saying the thing that needs to be said in rooms when the people being talked about badly aren't there to defend themselves. It looks like me trying to check somebody that I'm hanging out with. Say, a male friend of mine, you know, he has something crazy to say about a woman.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

It's not laughing it off- Or just accepting it-

Lynn Williams

Right

Delma Jackson

but pushing back in that in real time. But not just in that casual setting. It's also in professional settings. It's in boardrooms. It's challenging people who might be responsible for paying me.

Lynn Williams

Hmm.

Delma Jackson

Right? And saying, "Yeah, I want your money, but not like this, and here's why." And being willing to risk losing access to resources sometimes.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Sometimes I'm not. Okay. And when I'm not, being very clear with my people that I'm allied with-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

why I'm not, right? I don't expect everybody to run out here and just kick in the door of every leader and demand everything all... You know, we, we gotta live. We gotta live. We gotta keep the lights on. We gotta bring food in. I get it.

Lynn Williams

Uh-huh.

Delma Jackson

I'm, I'm compassionate about that.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

All I ask is if you know you're struggling, talk about it. You know? Don't, don't stand in front of me and say, "I got your back." But only to a certain extent, but I don't know what that extent is 'cause you won't share it with me. 'Cause it feels hard to admit it, right? I think this work is situational. It changes depending on the... You know, it might be at the dinner table. And family is- Okay family is some of the hardest people to challenge in the world. Yes. Yes. Right?

Lynn Williams

Yes.

Delma Jackson

Yes,

Lynn Williams

yes

Delma Jackson

so we pick and choose our fights. We pick and choose our fights, but we fight.

Lynn Williams

But we do fight.

Delma Jackson

But we fight. Exactly, yeah.

Lynn Williams

That's good. That's strong So you spent, well, actually more than the 20 years in the work.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

And you say there's still a lot to learn.

Delma Jackson

Oh, yeah.

Lynn Williams

So what keeps you learning instead of being the expert? Because honestly, honestly, and you know I've been saying for years-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

I need to pay you tuition- for the things that I learn from you about this work, so.

Delma Jackson

I'll take it, whenever you're ready. No, I, I think a dear friend of mine, Dr. Shandiin Garcia a longtime friend, longtime colleague Indigenous woman, she and I have gotten close around conversations around Black and Indigenous solidarity, and we're often exchanging cultural nuances, cultural norms, stereotypes. We talk about all of it, but one of the things that she often names is that what Western expertise assumes is that you have to go through its ivy tower hallways- Hmm in order to develop a type of expertise, right? Okay. And this is a woman with a PhD from Harvard saying this. Oh, wow. Right? Okay. She's always making the argument that expertise is carved out of lived experience, and that a good facilitator, a good community organizer or, or engager recognizes the expertise in every single person they encounter. Hmm. It's always there. Hmm. Hmm. And it's your job to make space for it to show up, to make it clear to people that you don't value someone's title or degree over lived experience, right?

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

I can be really good at taking tests and pass through any collegiate experience I want to.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Does that mean I understand this work, that I understand people, that I understand justice? No. And so while I also consider myself an academic, I definitely value what academia can provide. It is not the sole arbiter of expertise.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

Right? Mm-hmm. And so I'm always curious about ways, and I've learned a lot from other colleagues like Regina, you know, finding ways to tap into the collective expertise in a given room, 'cause it is there.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

It's always there.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. Yeah.

Lynn Williams

That says a lot about how you facilitate. Mm-hmm. And it says a lot about why it's, it's so comfortable. Well, I wouldn't say comfortable.

Katelyn

Hmm.

Lynn Williams

It's comfortable in the midst of discomfort. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katelyn

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

You know? It's, it's easy to not just get up, not withdraw, not you know- Sure Because we don't have to feel like we're on the spot-

Katelyn

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

for any particular aspect of who we are or who we think we are.

Delma Jackson

That part. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Lynn Williams

So change takes connection, compassion, accountability, story, and community.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

You've said that.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

But for someone who wants to start but doesn't really know how, where do they begin?

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. I am a firm believer that you should always chase this work behind your passion. Meaning whatever it is you're already doing, there's a way to do it that is more equitable, right?

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

And your job is not to suddenly change careers. You don't have to suddenly drop everything you're doing and, and go hold up a sign and march and do all of that kind of stuff.

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

If that's your thing, please do. But for some of us, it just means making sure that we're present with our children because those are future citizens, right? So I would argue that it starts small.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

What's that phrase we hear all the time? Think global, act local.

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

Right?

Lynn Williams

Yeah.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. Some of us are drawn to a more global big picture thing. There's nothing wrong with that either, right? Mm-hmm. I have a, a colleague that I had the pleasure of interviewing years ago on a podcast, and she has been running a Black-owned farm in Upstate New York now for several years, and does social justice work as well. And she introduced the concept of the social justice butterfly to me, and it always stuck with me, right? And the idea is that instead of arguing about tactics- We understand that all four wings of a butterfly have to work in unison- To function, and so she broke down the four components of the wings as you... You know, one wing is your building wing, then you have healing, you have rebellion, and you have reform, right?

Lynn Williams

Mm.

Delma Jackson

And a lot of us can find ourselves in any one of those things. Okay. And we're not necessarily stuck in any one of them either. Mm-hmm. We can move around in that, right? Mm-hmm. But there's room for all of it, or it doesn't fly So we need our healing practitioners. We need people who know how to tend to our physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing, right?

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

We need people that know how to build things, who are okay with joining, but have vision to actually create something from the ground up- Okay that people might feel drawn to. You need the rebelliousness. I talked about that, you know, with the street level rebellion, right? You need that. And if it's not your bag, it doesn't mean you're any less engaged or less of an activist. You don't have to set something on fire- just to be engaged. But at the same time, if you're a reformer and you like working within the system-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

it's not my job to turn to the rebellious one and be like, "You're doing the wrong thing."

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

Right? Because I understand nobody listens to me unless you out there doing what you're doing too, right?

Lynn Williams

That's important.

Delma Jackson

Very. Martin understood without Malcolm, there was no him. You needed that, not even threat, but the presence of someone who was not gonna turn the other cheek. Because you can either deal with one group or you can deal with the other, and power would always rather deal with someone who's willing to work within its own systems rather than someone who would tear 'em down,

Lynn Williams

yes.

Delma Jackson

But if there's no one around who's willing to tear it down, why would I listen to anybody?

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

Right?

Lynn Williams

Right.

Delma Jackson

And so,

Lynn Williams

And sometimes it's easier to tear it down from the inside-

Delma Jackson

Sometimes

Lynn Williams

out.

Delma Jackson

Exactly. Yeah. And so being able to sit with folks who are in all different areas of this work-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

so that you're actually talking about this, you're actually figuring out what strategy makes sense at what time-

Lynn Williams

Mm

Delma Jackson

that's when you start to see real movement. And I think any successful historical movement has always been good at welcoming all those aspects, okay. And bringing them together. So I think start wherever you are. Look at what you have in front of you and around you. What is your locus of control? Okay. What do you have control over?

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

That's a great place to start. Start asking for stories from the people around you, right? I remember during the Me Too movement, for instance, being very intentional about sitting down with my mother, sitting down with my sister-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

and asking questions I just had never asked.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

What is your history interacting with men, right? Simple.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And I learned a lot, we're- most of us are surrounded by people, and each one of these people is a walking universe with stories, and those stories can be very informative and moving and connecting.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

And so you don't have to go out and hit the restart button. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to suddenly recreate yourself.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Start where you are. Pay attention to where your biases are, right?

Lynn Williams

That's... Say that again. Say that again because, you know, it's easy to jump into the work-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

looking outward.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think-

Lynn Williams

But that generally shows up somewhere down the line

Delma Jackson

Oh, absolutely. And it, and it... And I would argue it is why most DEI initiatives fail miserably. They don't address the people. They just address the systems, but systems are nothing but a collection of people and the decisions that these people are making. And so if we are not willing to do the fufu, the deep breathing, the meditation, if we're not willing to do the self-reflection, the journaling, the vulnerability piece, if we can't go there, if we can't unlock that part of ourselves, then the minute you have a deadline-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

you'll default to what you've always done. The minute you're under stress and duress, you will default to what you've always done. Mm-hmm. That's where you uphold the system because when when your blood pressure is up and your pulse is up-

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm

Delma Jackson

you're going to go to your default way of being. And so I love, well, you can probably tell by now I love quotes anyway. But one of my favorite, I was introduced to it through Bruce Lee. I don't know if it was originally his or not, but it's this idea that Under moments of stress, we don't live up to our highest expectation. We live up to the highest level of our training.

Lynn Williams

Ah, that is something to think about.

Delma Jackson

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't, we would all love to be good guys all the time. Mm-hmm. We would all love to be superheroes all the time.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

We're not. And it's usually when we need to be the most that we fall short, not because we plan to, not because we want to, but because we're accustomed to. We haven't trained for anything else.

Lynn Williams

Hmm. That's something to chew on.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

That is... Yeah.

Delma Jackson

Yeah.

Lynn Williams

I would say it applies not only to people as individuals- Mm-hmm but as, as communities, as... And I think you mentioned earlier the rally that, that came about because of George Floyd. Mm-hmm. And then a few years later they sort of default or falling back.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Williams

I can see that as being part of the same dynamic you just expressed-

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm

Lynn Williams

with individuals.

Delma Jackson

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah

Lynn Williams

Well, I think you have a few other things coming up in the near future. Can you tell us- about that, Sankofa?

Delma Jackson

Yeah. We got something this evening actually, so I, I don't know how quickly this will go out, but I doubt that it'll go out the same day. So, but no, we're looking at the intersection of Black and queer identity tonight over at Queens Provisions. Okay. And then beyond that, we are definitely looking to host... We have a few things going on, actually. We are looking to bring together a group of local thinkers, leaders, organizers out at the Baha'i Center in Davisdan- Oh, okay maybe in October- Okay and to spend a weekend together breathing, planning, organizing, you know- Mm-hmm learning storytelling, the whole, the whole nine yards. Okay. Okay. So we are developing a partnership with them, not just for a one and done, but what can we continuously do- Do together together, right. Exactly. And then, yeah, just making more inroads with other community organizations that are doing this kind of work and trying to figure out where we can break down some of the silos so that we're better able to coordinate calendars, coordinate- Mm-hmm efforts, coordinate resources.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

Right? I'm really excited. I don't think it's gone public yet, so I won't say too much. But I have a, a dear colleague who is a researcher, and she is preparing to release an atlas that will be statewide and eventually nationwide. But what the atlas does really well is it takes multiple points. I think, I might be wrong here, 30 plus points of identity markers.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

And you get to pick which ones, put them together so that it's intersectional.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

And then it spits back where the gaps are, offers potential solutions to address this particular population within a population. So it is the first of its kind that I'm aware of that takes a truly intersectional approach- Okay to looking at some of our social problems by zip code or by racial category or by whatever other categories you wanna kinda weave into it, and that's really exciting.

Lynn Williams

That is exciting.

Delma Jackson

Oh, and then another thing. I know we were looking to do something around the history of medical malpractice in the Black community.

Lynn Williams

Okay.

Delma Jackson

Probably in the fall. Once the local universities get back up and running, we'll probably partner with maybe one of the medical schools or a health department to do that kind of work on one of our campus communities. Yeah, that's a lot. I'm probably- Yeah, this is a lot forgetting 50 million things. That is a lot. But yeah, we're We're, we're, we're gonna continue to stay busy and do this work and learn together in community. Yeah.

Lynn Williams

Well, I definitely appreciate. I appreciate you being back in community and- Yeah and doing this work with some great people. I'm just fortunate that I'm able to sometimes partake.

Delma Jackson

I mean, not just partake. You've, you've been instrumental obviously in allowing us to do the work, and continuing to fund us and support us even when you're getting last-minute emails and last-minute phone calls. So we deeply, deeply appreciate- It's important

Lynn Williams

work your continued work. Thank you. It's important work. And, and again, I deeply appreciate having you here to do the work and to lead the work, so at, at- Yeah a time like this when it's really needed.

Delma Jackson

Oof, that is for sure.

Lynn Williams

Mm-hmm.

Delma Jackson

That is for sure. Yeah. Again, thank you for having me. It was good to talk to you.

Lynn Williams

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for this conversation. And again, thank you for all that you do. To learn more about the Truth, Racial Healing and Transformation initiative visit cfgf.org/trht. To learn more about the Sankofa Project for Social Justice and its upcoming events, visit delmajackson.com. This has been Philanthropy Speaks. I'm Lynn Williams. We'll be back next time with another conversation about the people and ideas strengthening Flint and Genesee County.